A conversation between an angry Libertarian and a disabused Idealist, based on
this article.
Libertarian: True story...
Idealist: True story that it’s a diatribe against the left? You’re right dude (pun intended). Coming from an "anti-state, anti-war, pro-market" source like this one, it’s not too surprising... Fact is it’s always the same old rhetorical debates that keep coming back (only disguised in fancy prose). Left and right qualifiers are clichés. Anyone with a bit of reason understands that. In fact, anyone with a bit of reason cannot only be one or the other. Because life is not black or white. Life is gray. Always.
I am still amazed at how certain Unitedstaters make issues out of non-issues. Who cares if Obama is compared to Hitler? Who cares if Obama eats his burgers with Dijon mustard? Who cares if Clinton slept with Lewinsky or not? These are *NOT* issues. When was the last time you had an election where "God" wasn’t mentioned? When was the last time you had an election where the economy, education and health were at the forefront of news coverage (as opposed to some other idiotic scandal that doesn’t make sense at all)?
Stop listening to your crappy mass media and make your own ideas! Read from elsewhere around the globe. Learn to be modest and learn how to learn from others. By wasting time debating whether this policy will "kill your freedom", "destroy your liberties", "give more power to the government" or "go against your constitutional rights", you are actually losing track of the essential: basic human rights come with duties and responsibilities towards other human beings. If you want to be treated equally and to live in peace and security, you have to treat other human beings equally. Enough with the individualistic power trip! Sweeping away entire communities of your society under the so-called argument "it’s not my problem" (e.g. poor people) is the very opposite of respect and common sense that leads to violence and extremism. This is true for individuals *AND* for societies. In fact, it’s the basic principle upon which societies were created several thousand years ago...
It’s sad, but it seems to me like the USA has completely lost track of this basic human philosophy. By being too concerned with making more money than your neighbor, by bitching about your "freedom rights", by following this outdated piece of document you call a "constitution" like it’s some kind of word from "God" (instead of thinking for yourselves), you actually forgot what it means to be plain old Human. With a capital H. By trying to be the universal "bearers of freedom", you are losing track of what it is to be free. By being a bit more modest and by taking the time to look at how it works elsewhere in the World (without succumbing to childish clichés that usually confirm your blunt ignorance), you would actually notice that being free doesn’t mean to be "government free". The vast majority of western civilizations actually have way more government intervention than you do and they don’t live in this police-driven-regime-of-fear-power-trip joke that you can find around here sometimes.
And you know what? You probably don’t notice it, but in addition to living better, longer and happier lives, the vast majority of western civilizations are actually "free-er" than you are. Now that’s what I call Irony. With a capital I...
Libertarian: Try being an immigrant in one of those Western European countries, like France. Try speaking out against Sharia in England. And ask immigrants to the US how they like it. Government intervention may in the long run be what has been breaking down communities in America - "it's not my problem" if the government is already taking money from me to fix it. And if you think the constitution is out of date, go back in history to any large nation between the fall of the Roman Republic to 1776, and you will find being a HUMAN is largely dependent on whether you're a ruler or subject - the constitution changed all that. Have you read it? It's not God - it is meant to limit the power of our government, because the founders knew that power corrupts.
Idealist: I never said the US constitution didn’t have any impact. Where did you read that? The very essence of the United States changed everything in the modern world. Heck, democracy had been dormant since Ancient Greece before the US came into existence! That is no small feat.
I’m trying to make sense of your message but I don’t get it: you want to convince me that pre-1776 Western societies were monarchies and/or tyrannies with no sense of human empathy? You’re absolutely right and there is nothing to debate here. I never said the contrary.
But 1776 was 233 years ago. Do you seriously think Western societies are still like that today? Like I said in my last message: get out of your country a little and get informed beyond the clichés! Over the past 233 years, the Western World evolved to create what are now the best political systems you can find on Earth. Of course they are not perfect (democracy itself is not perfect), but most of them sure as hell beat the joke you can find here! It’s sad to say, but the pupil became the master and the arrogant master refuses to recognize it (like every falling superpower in the history of Mandkind before...).
What happened to democracy here? What happened to voting for a local deputy that represents ideas beyond the rhetoric left and right qualifiers? What happened to People’s Rights? What happened to choice?
Is this your idea of a healthy democracy: The Electoral College? A dual party system (only 2 serious choices)? The fact that you need to be “registered” to vote? The senate? Rich guys in suits running your life? Insurance companies deciding whether you should live or die? Crumbling bureaucracies? A voting ballot so complicated you need a Ph.D. to decipher it? Lobbyists in Washington who couldn’t care less about the rights of the People? A Presidential election where the loser is declared the winner by courts of law? I could keep going...
Seriously, what is THAT?! Where are the ideas of the Founding Fathers in this joke of a system?! I can understand why modern Unitedstaters are so cynical about the entire political spectrum of their country: they never really knew what it was to live in a real democracy...
But here is where you confuse everything: what you guys need is a major overhaul of this political and democratic system, *NOT* the total annihilation of government! There is a *HUGE* difference between the two and the vast majority of civilized nations of this World have found a very good balance between individual liberties and government policies.
“If men were angels, no government would be necessary.” - James Madison, 1788
Libertarian: "Listen, guy, don't pretend to know where I've been, half of my family lives in Western Europe and I've been to most of the countries there. Also, you said the Constitution was outdated - there's an amendment process for that. I do agree that the 2 party system is a problem and that lobbying is out of hand. But the electoral college exists because we don't elect a supreme leader - the Federal Government is the government of the states (if not for the electoral college, the president would campaign in 5 cities and not give a shit about the rest of the country, and his policies would reflect that even more than they sometimes do). You do the classic idiotic thing - you assume all this shit about my arguments instead of just reading the text and responding accordingly. And you insult what you think is my lack of World experience."
Idealist: So I’m "assuming all this shit about your arguments" and "insulting your lack of World experience?" Trust me it’s not the case, at least not on an individual level. Quite frankly, I am more than happy to discuss with someone who is interested by this stuff. To avoid thinking and arguing, most people usually just shut up and go on their merry way, which eventually leads to feelings of resentment, extremism and violence toward others. Discussion is the key to everything.
That being said, please don’t accuse me of doing something you are doing yourself: you keep coming back to the "you did not read the constitution" statement (which is not true) instead of addressing the real issues that are plaguing this country’s system...
Ironically, you and I probably agree on many political philosophies. However, unlike free-market libertarians found in the US, I don’t believe the solution to this mess is the pure and simple elimination of governments. I do believe a good government is a government that actually responds to the will of the People (it does exist by the way), not a "government" that gives you the same old crappy options whether you vote Democrat or Republican, left or right, blue or red (as if there were only 2 options in life anyway: evil or more evil...).
Blaming the government for the problems of the World is such an easy thing to do when we sit on our asses all day doing nothing about it (we all do it at some point). By adopting certain philosophies and certain ways of living, we as citizens refuse to acknowledge the fact that we are part of the problem and that the system is messed up because of us all. Blaming the government is just a simple way to "deresponsibilize" the individual.
The annihilation of government offers people the illusion of a simple answer and hope of a better life without having to change their own philosophy, just like believing in "God" offers the illusion of a simple (but flawed) answer to life and the universe... You are free to think that, but it’s simply not true. In fact, by exclusively blaming governments, we are totally missing the target. Getting rid of governments will not eliminate corruption, poverty, sickness, corporate greed and/or evil-doers. If anything, it’ll offer less individual and collective protection against all that.
It’s funny how this whole thing started with me wanting to point out how the alleged "fact verification" article cited above was in reality nothing more than pure left bashing from a biased free-market libertarian source. Not to say that Anthony Gregory didn’t make some good points; he’s just hiding a much deeper and darker agenda... Would you quote anti-evolution "facts" from intelligent design "specialists" to convince others of the well being of your position? I certainly wouldn’t. Same thing here... And in the end, quoting unreliable sources simply discredits your position altogether.
Libertarian: You are confusing libertarians with anarchists. Don't.
Idealist: Libertarianism embraces anarchism:
"Libertarianism is a term adopted by a broad spectrum of political philosophies which advocate the maximization of individual liberty and the minimization or even abolition of the state. Libertarians embrace viewpoints across that spectrum, ranging from pro-property to anti-property, from minarchist to openly anarchist."
In fact:
"Libertarian socialists, including Noam Chomsky and Colin Ward, argue that the term "libertarianism" is globally considered a synonym for anarchism and that the United States is unique in widely associating it with free market ideology."
(Wikipedia)
Hence, you shouldn't assume that the definition of "libertarianism" only means what you think it means. Still, you not knowing that shows yet again how the US is so self-centered...
Libertarianism is just anarchy for rich people.